Working for logical immigation reform based on a stable population, a recognition of the finite nature of our natural resources and the adverse impact of continued growth on our quality of life, standard of living, national interest, character, language, sovereignty and the rule of law. Pushing back and countering the disloyal elements in American society and the anti-American rhetoric of the leftwing illegal alien lobbies. In a debate, when your opponents turn to name calling, it's a good sign you've already won.

Friday, July 6, 2007

The Pros vs the Antis, Part II

The Pros:

(1) This term is generally a misnomer because those in this fold are more often than not opposed rather than for something.

(2) Some are for secure borders but would deny our country the tools necessary to achieve that goal.

(3) Some give lip service to the English language but oppose Official English.

(4) Some are in favor of employer sanctions but oppose the sanctions against the illegals that would create the disincentives necessary to buttress the physical barriers at the border.

(5) Some oppose the interests of their fellow citizens and the national interest and, instead, are intensely pro-illegal, favoring foreigners and foreign governments rather than supporting their own country.

(6) Use terms like racist, bigot, nativist, and others to describe citizens who disagree with them.

(7) Like ad hominem arguments because they don't have to think to advance those arguments. They can just appeal to emotion.

(8) There are radical elements on both sides of the issues but the Pros like to lump all "Anti" citizens into the lunatic fringe while saying nothing about the radicals they support like MALDEF, MECHa, La Raza, LULAC and the Atzlanistas.

(9) Favor legalizing all illegals already here, thereby extending an open invitation for more to come.

(10) Have a singular lack of appreciation of the heartfelt concerns of American citizens -- they attribute all those concerns to racism or worse and yet no one has advocated the deportation of anyone except the illegals, regardless of their ethnicity or country of origin.

(11) Oppose any approach except comprehensive reform.

(12) Believe Americans do not have a good work ethic and strong families.

(13) Believe assimilation is taking place and everyone is learning English by the second generation.

(14) Believe illegals are needed and can develop the skills and professional knowledge to replace retiring boomers.

(15) They believe the illegals deserve a pathway to citizenship.

(16) They believe most illegals pay all the applicable taxes.

(17) Believe border violations and use of another person's SSN are trivial offenses.

(18) Believe in self-deportation so that the those involved can return quickly without the onus of classification as a felon.

The Antis:

(1) Have a strong desire to preserve the America they know and love.

(2) Some believe that to accomplish that legitimate goal requires a stable population.

(3) Some believe strongly in the rule of law and therefore think that most if not all illegals should be repatriated.

(4) Most see support of foreigners and foreign interests as a form of disloyalty.

(5) Some believe that the 14th amendment has been regularly abused and therefore needs to be revised or reinterpreted.

(6) Some would make support of a revision of the 14th a test of loyalty.

(7) Some see a simple compromise for dealing with the illegals already in this country -- institute a stringent process for determining which of them hold jobs citizens would do if offered a fair wage and a hiring preference.

(8) Those who fail this process go to immigration appeals court to state their case for remaining. They must show why they should remain. No one is required to show why they should not.

(9) Most believe strongly in employer sanctions and in the employers' obligations to confirm the immigration status of every existing employee and every new employee.

(10) Most believe those who fail the immigration status test should be turned over to the ICE.

(11) Most believe there is no excuse for hiring an illegal whether or not his documents look authentic. Employers must be held accountable whether they hired them knowingly or unknowingly.

(12) Most believe family separations are caused by the illegals not by the ICE.

(13) Most believe the use of fraudulent documents or a fake SSN or an SSN belonging to someone else should be classified as a felony.

(14) Most believe that some assimilation is taking place but maybe a new trend is taking place in Southern California, Texas, Arizona and New Mexico.

(15) Many believe that a pathway to citizenship should be reserved for those who were born here or who arrived here legally and that there should be no permanent residency for anyone else.

(16) Many believe the Pros, despite their protestations to the contrary, want a bilingual nation.

(17) Many believe bilingualism in the individual is good but wasteful as a national policy and that it would weaken national unity.

(18) Many believe that dual citizenship is an oxymoron.

(19) Many believe illegals conduct business and are paid on a cash basis with no tax deductions other than perhaps social security on another persons SSN.

(20) Many believe that all repatriations should be involuntary to create a disincentive for repeat offenses. Repeat offenders would be classified as felons and subject to a two year jail term.


mirrorism said...

1. Being for the status-quo is being for something.

Still, most "pros" want what makes the most sense, they want immigrants to be able to come out of the shadows and be comfortable in the place where they live and work.

2. Walls are so 1960s.

Few, very few want open borders, most are fine with secure borders and a controlled flow of immigration, so long as the labor market demands it.

3. Expecting immigrants, especially the ones uneducated in their own language, to learn an entirely new language well enough to communicate in that language beyond everyday communication is foolish. Few people are mentally capable of learning new languages past the age of 12, if I'm not mistaken.

To avoid lawsuits, businesses, private and public, need documents in Spanish, Chinese, Tagalog, so their customers can fully understand what they are getting themselves into. Regardless of them knowing how to speak English, the best way to communicate with them is through their native language.

I hear people complain about hearing an automated machine give the option of Spanish, well, why don't they complain about having to talk to someone in India in English?

Children of immigrants born here in the US learn English... eventually. Obviously, Spanish is their first language, but English will be their dominant language as soon as they start watching Saturday morning cartoons and MTV.

In the end, to be successful, to achieve the American dream, in this country you must learn English. Making the language "official" does not change that fact. Examples; you can't get higher education (college) without English, you can't start a business without English, you can't get promoted without English, you can't become a Citizen without English, etc.

4. Deportation is a disincentive. Regardless of what you hear, crossing the border illegally is a grueling, expensive, life threatening task.

I don't think you should sanction the employers too hard either, unless you want to sanction their customers as well, because they benefit just like they do.

5. Uh... What?

6. If it looks like a duck...

You cannot deny that there are "leaders" of the anti-immigration crew that are racists. You cannot deny, for example, that the KKK has used the immigration issue as a recruiting tool, and it worked!

7. This goes both ways, I would say much more frequently on the anti side.

8. And Bush knocked down the twin towers... Uh huh. Stop worrying, no one is going to take back Mexico's lost territories. The knuckleheads who are asking for that are few and far between, they don't represent the opinions and desires of those mowing lawns and washing dishes.

However, the anti-immigration lunatics do have a mass following and plenty of airtime on radio and television, they have turned countless Americans against immigration of any kind and made demons of all immigrants through fear mongering tactics.

9. Ad-hominem?

10. Ad-hominem?

11. Oppose mass-deportation.

12. Ad-hominem?

13. Fact.

14. Yes, they are needed, check the unemployment rate. Their children will help replace retiring boomers and keep Social Security from collapsing.

15. Not so with everyone, as I already said, most just want them to be able to live and work in the US comfortably.

16. Death and taxes. That applies to illegals as well.

Those with fake documents pay ALL taxes and receive NOTHING in return. Those paid in cash cannot escape sales, excise (gas, tobacco, alcohol, etc.), property taxes (apartment owners/land lords pay those too), and their employers cannot escape their own income taxes.

17. You don't expect to fill our already overpopulated prisons with illegal immigrants, do you? You don't really want an illegal dishwasher to share cells with murderers, do you?

18. See 17, the classification of felon should be reserved to those who truly deserve it.

1. White America?

But seriously, the America we know and love has historically been nice to immigrants... EVENTUALLY. The Irish along with any other non-WASP immigrants, for example, were treated terribly when they arrived, even as legal immigrants. Many of the same patterns (good and bad) we see in Hispanic immigrants today, in the American reaction to these immigrants, and in the immigration issue as a whole, we saw back then. They survived and now thrive in the US, as most of the future generations of Hispanic immigrants of yesterday are doing today.

2. The birth rate of American women is, if I'm not mistaken, 1.8. To have a stable population we must replenish our current population size. This is the reason why the children of illegals will keep Social Security alive.

3. In other words, mass deportation.

4. When I support these foreigners right to live and work in the US, I am also supporting their employers, ie. Americans, right to make a living in the US.

5 You sure you want to open up this can of worms?

6 And some believe that the Constitution should not be altered no matter what.

7 So, is it mass deportation or selective deportation? Regardless, you won't find enough unemployed Americans to fill all of those jobs. Nor will you find employers capable of paying much more than they already pay them. Low-skilled jobs just don't and shouldn't pay much.

8 So, is it mass deportation or selective deportation?

9 Hypothetical... John Doe employs someone, an American, to paint his house at a very reasonable price, this American painter later arrives at your house with 5 illegal immigrant painters. Should you also be sanctioned like the employer?

Of course, this situation not only applies to a personal contract, but also the big time contracts private corporations give to general contractors all across America who later hirer construction, landscaping, custodial companies who employ illegal immigrants. The fruits of their labor are later enjoyed by you and me, should we be sanctioned for living in the houses, working in the buildings, and driving on the roads that illegal immigrants helped build?

In other words, how can you escape benefiting, either willing and unwillingly, knowing and unknowingly, from illegal immigrants?

10 So, is it mass deportation or selective deportation?

11 See #9.

I'd also like to know if the situation of the employer hiring illegals, even unknowingly, trickles down to the consumer?

12 This is a complicated subject.

13 See #17-18 in the pro section.

14 If you haven't noticed this is a "sink or swim" society, in order to succeed assimilation is necessary.

Now, in terms of assimilating in Texas, California, New Mexico, and Arizona, it's different. As we all know, those states were once a territory of Mexico, which led to things like Tex-Mex food, cowboy hats, and Tejano music for example. We can't escape (have I used that word enough?) our past in these states, we have Texas History in middle school which is heavy in Mexican history (full of myths, BTW).

Despite all of that, people still need to assimilate and live with an American mindset in these states to succeed.

But I have a feeling you were talking about something completely different when you said "new trend." Hopefully, you do not believe that you can achieve success anywhere in the US without fully assimilating yourself as an American.

15 First of all, those born here are citizens already, even if you change the 14th amendment it won't work retroactively against those already born here. Second, not that many people want permanent residency, most want guest worker programs.

16 See #3 in pro section.

17 See #3 in pro section, and for that matter #9 too, lol.

18 Never thought about this, but one thing that just popped into my head is that this issue is an international issue, many countries welcome people who can prove that they have ancestry from that country. This is true with Mexico and China, as well as European countries like Germany and Italy, if I'm not mistaken.

19 See #16 in pro section.

On another person's Social Security? I'd love it if someone else was contributing to my Social Security fund!

20 See #17 in pro section.

ultima said...

1. Most "antis" want illegals to remain uncomfortable in the place where they live and work until such time as employers can prove the need for them and help them to achieve registration but without a pathway to citizenship.

2. Too often folks tend to think of walls in terms of the Berlin wall rather than in terms of a way to help secure the border. A contolled flow of legal immigrants consistent with the skills and numbers needed to achieve two objectives: a stable population and a soft landing for our economy.

3. I agree there are many among the illegals and legal immigrants who will never become fluent in English. However, that being the case, I am not prepared to grant them a pathway to citizenship or the right to vote. I am comfortable with extending that pathway to citizenship to all of their children who successfully graduate from high school.

4. I see no need to communicate with them in any language except English unless it is via an interpreter at their own expense, unless they cannot afford one. Tort reform could quickly place lawsuits due to one's inability to understand English otherwise out of reach.

Believe me they do complain about speaking with people from India in English. If I suspect that, I hang up. Sometimes it is because my poor hearing makes it impossible for me to comprehend everything that is being said even if it is in English. A slight different pronunciation of vowels and consonents is enough to make it very difficult for me. Shucks, I can't even understand my wife unless she looks me right in the eye.

It is a little irritating to have to put up with a foreign language on the phone along with all the other automated choices.

Actually the remainder of the last paragraph is not entirely true. There is a butcher here in Denver who after 20 years still doesn't speak English. That is an important point. You get enough Spanish-speaking customers and suddenly it is no longer necessary to learn English.

I son't know if you realize it or not but you have basicall agreed that (a) anyone over the age of 12 is unlikely to become fluent in English, and therefore, (b)they are ineligible for a pathway to citizenship [" can't become a Citizen without English"]

4. I agree involuntary deportation is a disincentive. Self-deportation probably isn't much of a disincentive.

"Regardless of what you hear, crossing the border illegally is a grueling, expensive, life threatening task." When I look at the volume of foot and vehicle traffic at the border and reflect on what Bob Schmidt told us about his wife's ease of entry, I find it hard to believe that anyone would take the unnecessary risk of crossing the desert in the Summer.

ultima said...

5. Yep, that there is the case!

ultima said...

6. The KKK et al aren't leaders. They are camp followers and harlots.

ultima said...

7. Naturally you would but you have to admit bigots, etc. are much more emotionally-laden terms than simple organizations entities like La Raza. Hence the preponderance of the ad hominem arguments seem to be on the pro side.

8. A difference of opinion. "Mexifornia: A State of Becoming"

9. Air time yes, for air heads. I don't listen and am not swayed by that entertainment rhetoric. I am swayed by legitimate arguments to the effect that unfettered population growth is not in our interests, any of us. I blieve some countries have already demonstrated that a stable population and a stable economy are achievable. I also believe that many underestimate the potential for not only Mexifornia but even Mexichusetts, etc. I like to think that those who sound this clarion warning are the modern day Paul Reveres and that those who ignore that warning are sure to suffer the same consequences that the patriots would have seen if they had not been alerted on the 18th of April in '75.

ultima said...

9.10,12. I don't see any appeal to emotion in these items. If you don't subscribe to those attributes of pros, just say so.

11. The ideas of mass deportation and mass legalization are congruent. If you oppose mass deportation, you seem to be saying you are for mass legalization. Otherwise, what degree of deportations and disincentives are you in favor of?

ultima said...

13. Remains to be seen whether or not there is a new trend in parts of California and Texas. I want to believe you and the prior data.

14. They will have to stay in school and move faster in that direction before we can be sanguine about this outcome. More likely we will see a real shortage of highly skilled workers. Bill Gates says we already have such a shortage [hence the SKIL bill}.

15. I guess all citizens share the desire to live comfortably in the U.S., free of foreign influences and threats. A pathway to citzenship may be the main roadblock to an immigration bill along with serious doubts about any administration's intent to enforce the law whatever it is, amply demonstrated by precedence. Of course, mass legalization also has an ad hominem appeal to some. It just doesn't seem right to legalize lawbreakers until we have a foolproof system to make sure it doesn't ever happen again. Maybe we need a constitutional amendment that makes it unlawful to grant legalization to anyone who has violated our borders and national sovereignty and making failure to enforce immigration laws an impeachable offense.

17. No I don't I wouldn't wish that on any lawabiding person but I can see something short of that in terms of allowing them to do the same kind of work on the border infrastructure while serving whatever detention is appropriate. No I don't want them co-mingled with harden criminals. I might even consider letting them commute across the border into Mexico at the end of each day but with the understanding that they will serve hard time if they don't come back to finish their detention or if they return to the U.S. illegally.

18. If you reserve the felon classification for those "who truly deserve it", you might as well forget the whole thing. Self-deportation is not much of a disincentive if your family is still back in the USA. Deportation works only if it is involuntary and results in a felony classification if they return.

ultima said...

1. It's not about a "white" America, as I'm sure you know. How could it be with the mixture we have in this country today?

Of course there was always some fear of catholics whether they be Irish or Italian or even German. The Irish were a crude bunch when they first arrived. They had almost been reduced to animals by the potato famine and they lived pretty much like animals in Ireland and in the tenements of Boston. But be that as it may, times have changed and there are some new factors to consider: a doubling of our population every 80 years; declining natural resources, especially water,petroleum and arable land. Do you think we would be wise to ignore that inspite of our immigrant past?

Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the fairest of us all? More later, for now you've worn me out.

mirrorism said...

First, I do not prefer this "anti" or "pro" labeling, since we are all FOR some kind of immigration reform. We can work together to come to an understanding of each others view points instead of looking at each other as cats and dogs. If in the end, we agree to disagree, then so be it, so long as we have listened to each other's thoughts on this subject.

1. Hardly anyone is for a clear path to citizenship, obviously, some are willing to work hard for citizenship and they should be given that opportunity. However, there are a lot of immigrants who simply want to work here, who plan on eventually returning to their home countries.

2. I don't believe in walls, but besides that, where do we disagree?

3. Of course, as I said later, you cannot become a citizen without learning the language of English.

Being an American is a birth right, not something you earn with a high school education, as if that was something to be proud of! If that were the case more than 25% of America's population would have to get deported to some dunce corner of the world.

4. No they do not, outsourcing, IMO is a bigger issue than illegal immigration because it truly does take jobs Americans want. I know people who can't find jobs with degrees in computer related fields because of outsourcing.

Your butcher example is an exception to the rule, but regardless of that fact, do you really think he runs his business without any grasp of the English language? Everyone he deals with, not just customers, but suppliers, accountants, etc. speak to him in Spanish?

5. Yeah, yeah, and those who oppose the war are against America. Uh huh...

6. You can try and try to distance yourself from those people but you cannot deny that the vast majority of the people against immigration were not swayed by them. In fact, I would say that you cannot deny that you yourself have not been swayed by any of their arguments for you repeat them ad nauseum.

7. 40 million illegals in the country... 7000 recent cases of leprosy in the United States... immigrants are more likely to be child molesters... immigrants want to take back Mexico's old territories... Mexican terrorists...

Should I go on?

8. Terrible book.

If you are not swayed by them why do you so often repeat their arguments? Echo... Echo... Echo...

9. If the borders are secure no more can come.

10. You have advocated the deportation of American born children of illegals who don't graduate high school.

11. You legalize those who are and can continue to contribute to this country. I realize that there will be some bad apples, just like any other group of people in this world, those cannot be accepted.

12. I say there aren't enough unemployed Americans to fill the jobs illegal immigrants fill. You interpret that as me saying that Americans don't want those jobs?

13. Fact.

14. I'm all for reform of the public education system as well!

15. Reads like a letter you might have written to your Senator.

17. That would truly be slave labor, you really do want this country to devolve?

18. I just don't see the connection between violent criminals, sexually deviant criminals, white-collar criminals, and illegal immigrants.

The former types have nothing to do with anyone unless they are their victims. We all benefit from the latter, either indirectly or directly, knowingly or unknowingly.

1. America survived, America thrived, the "animals" (nice one, are Mexicans animals too?) from Ireland did not ruin America.

1.8 birth rate = a decline in population. We live longer today. Stop buying SUVs. We do not live in a bubble.

ultima said...

We agree on your first statement. I have always hated the terms Pro and Anti because they imply a chasm that can never be bridged. I believe I have read or listened to other point of view and comprehended them. Otherwise, I would have allowed your comments and put my head in the sand along with many others on both sides of the issue. If it does not seem so, it is because I am intensely worried about what it happening to our country and its consequences for my children and grandchildren. I prefer that they enjoy the same quality of life and the same America I have enjoyed. I believe that is severely threatened and that too few realize it.

mirrorism said...

I'm not an old guy, but I do feel older than my age because I love to read, your worries have been shared with your ancestors for centuries. And America is still, by FAR, the greatest country on the planet.

ultima said...

1. There may be some basis for limited agreement here. I believe that if folks are willing to work at being Americans through social integration and linguistic and cultural assimilation, that should be recognized. I set the bar quite high for those who are here illegally. I believe there is substantial evidence that the longer folks are here the less likely it becomes that they will ever want to return to their homelands permanently. People tend to put down roots, their kids become more American and have little or no connection to the homeland. All this works against the idea of a return to the homeland. Let's take an OTM example. What do you think the chances are that a Taiwanese will ever want to move back to Taiwan?

2. Do you agree that a wall on our southern border would be fundamentally different than the Berlin wall? The Berlin Wall separated artificially Germans of the same culture, language and blood. The wall being proposed in the U.S. separates two different cultures with two different languages. I know the wall will be expensive and I know it will not stop all illegal traffic but I think it will help if it is augmented with electronic and aerial surveillance, and other infrastructure plus a significant level of involuntary deportations.

3. You suggest that a high school diploma is worthless and that may be true if the requirements for graduation have been dumbed down so that many with a diploma can't balance their checkbooks, do simple math calculations, measure twice, cut once, do their own taxes,understand political issues, etc. But one has to ask, compared to what? Compared to a dropout? Compared to no education? Compared to only an elementary school education? Surely there must be some demand for high school graduates or dropout otherwise why would we be talking about the illegals some of whom have never seen the inside of a school?

A diploma means at least you have learned enough English to pass the courses and the final exam. It means you at least have been expose to world geography, world affairs and civics. Given that person vs. one who has had none of this, I know what my choice would be. Deporting to the world dunce corner is not a bad idea, especially if our dunces were brighter than the other dunces!

4. I fully appreciate the outsourcing problem. I have two sons who are in the programming or engineering business. Some don't realize that we are not the only ones who are outsourcing jobs. Probably the German firms SAP and Siemens do a substantial amount of outsourcing and where would that leave us if we did not do likewise? I don't have an answer short of some sort of worldwide agreement not to pay less than the median domestic salary for the same type of job. No one is ready to do that for foreign workers doing outsourced jobs.

I do believe it can be done within the U.S.. I believe all employers of foreign workers should be required to either provide them with health insurance or agree to reimburse health care providers for any unpaid medical bills of their employees and their families. That would put a whole new face on the illegal aliens problem, wouldn't it?

I don't have first hand knowledge of the butcher, just what I read in the newspaper in one of the many immigration articles. However, I do believe that there is a critical mass of immigrants beyond which it is no longer necessary for them to learn English or assimilate. When you get to the point where 9.2 million Mexicans have entered the U.S. both legally and illegally. That's about 1/10 of the population
of Mexico which has moved , wholesale, into America. They have turned Southern California into a clone of Mexico. Huntington Park, California, 15 years ago stood at 86% Caucasian citizens. Today, via illegal immigration, it is now 98% Latino. The mayor says it is the most Mexican city outside of Mexico. Mexifornia is well on its way and everyone seems to have the blinders on.

5. I wouldn't say those against the war are against America but they may be extremely myopic about it. I suspect we will soon see. I predict the Shia will take over, maybe prompting Syria to jump in to defend the Sunnis. I don't think the Saudis are a problem because everyone there is a Prince and has no interest in fighting.

6. Actually, I have never heard or read anything by Dobbs or O'Reilly. I believe there are better sources of information. It's hard to say what influence they have had. I like to think that most Americans can think for themselves and don't need the Dobbs and O'Reillys to tell them what to think. I repeat ad nauseum what I believe to be the truth or the facts, just as those on the other side whatever you want to call them present their own arguments ad nauseum. The latter have additional problems of significant magnitude: denial and shortsightedness. They won't know where we are headed until we get there. That is a tragedy of the first order.

7. I don't know about the prevalence of disease and crime among the illegal and legal immigrants. Do you have an authoritative source you would like to share? I do know that when you look at the most wanted in any major city, there is a disproportionate share of Hispanic names. Many years ago a local Mexican terrorist blew himself up with a homemade bomb. Have you ever heard of Corky Gonzalez? He carried activism one step too far so yes, there are Mexican terrorists. How many I don't know.

8. If you don't agree with the Pros, why do you repeat their arguments and deny obvious facts? The book has been misrepresented by those who make their living from immigrants: by the American Immigration Law Foundation and the Immigration Policy Center. Neither is capable of objective point of view. I have suggested to the author of the book that he should put out a second edition to deal with the criticisms from the above biased sources. I think if he could find the time Prof. Hanson could easily destroy any suggestion of validity in those criticisms. They just missed the point altogether and instead resorted to ad hominem arguments. They did not refute his facts and they cannot refute his personal experiences. Hanson's conclusions are valid and his critics are in denial.

I have examined their arguments and found them to be factual and consistent with my own research and thoughts on the matter. What do you base your point of view on?

9. "If the borders are secure no more can come." If you believe that, you will believe anything. If we did everything possible short of shooting on sight, they will still come but if we do all the other things we can do, the illegal traffic would be drastically reduced.

10. You have to admit that might be a good incentive to stay in school and graduate. My main interest is in having an educated populace. Something short of graduation may be sufficient if all they want to do is draw welfare or work at menial tasks. One the posters referred to the former as welfare parasites and advocated deporting them along with all the various criminals and gang members.

11. You legalize those for whom an employer can present irrefutable evidence of need.

12. No, my position is as in 11 above. If I did not make that clear, I am making it clear now.

17. Slave labor, no! Punishment for breaking the law, yes! There is a difference and I think the illegals might appreciate the parole into Mexico at the end of each day -- not something normally extened to other criminals or slaves. You are indulging in hyperbole.

ultima said...

13. Which is the fact, the old date or the new trend?

ultima said...

Mirror said, "We can work together to come to an understanding of each others view points instead of looking at each other as cats and dogs."

It is a little hard to do that when you then go on to impugn the motives and intelligence of those with whom you disagree.

Let's start this conversation over again but just one topic at a time. It is too hard otherwise to match comment with comment without frequent back reference to the original post and all other comments.

Let's start with the idea of secure borders.

mirrorism said...

1. About the Mexican immigrants, once they cannot work anymore they go back to Mexico, there’s not much else for them here besides that. There are no assisted living homes for illegal immigrants. About their children, why should they go back? Especially the American children, America is their home land. About OTMs, I have no idea what they do, people in different cultures behave differently, I don’t know what their idea or ideal death is.
2. I disagree with the idea of a wall, the symbolism of it. Besides that, it will be too expensive, property along the Texas-Mexico border is mostly private, and there are some issues with regards to wildlife who see no borders.
3. I don’t think it’s worthless, but I know that you know that the graduation rate of Hispanic Americans is shamefully low. However, so is the graduation rate of any other flavor American with a similar economic background.
In this case I wasn’t talking about the illegal immigrant children, I was talking about their American children. They don’t have to earn their American citizenship just as no other American born children have to earn it.
Also, are you implying that American born and raised children of illegal immigrants don’t learn English? All of them learn English, a percentage of them forget Spanish altogether as they get older, and most of them don’t speak any Spanish to their children.

4. Agreed on the outsourcing, but how do you separate outsourcing from capitalism? Isn’t globalism a natural outcome of capitalism?
Agreed again, but that’s very unlikely because of what type of low paying work they do. It would cost more to pay for their insurance than to pay for their labor.

If all you want to do is break your back for low wages you don’t have to learn English or assimilate. But if you truly want to experience the American dream as an immigrant you have to learn English and assimilate.

“When you get to the point where 9.2 million Mexicans have entered the U.S. both legally and illegally. That's about 1/10 of the populationof Mexico which has moved , wholesale, into America.“

Now that comment impresses me, because when I hear people throw out a number upwards of 25, 30, 45 million I know they don’t even think about the relation to the population of Mexico. To suggest that more than a quarter of the population of Mexico is in the US illegally is absolutely insane, even 10% can be argued to be a slight exaggeration, but still, much more rational than most estimates.

Whites left Huntington Park before it was filled with Hispanics.

5. I try to avoid discussing things I know little about, so I’ll refrain from it here.

6. How have you avoided Dobbs and O’Reilly? That’s amazing.

People like Michael Savage (the one who recently hoped for the deaths of the fasting immigrant students in California), Lou Dobbs (the only man in America who can find a way to bring illegal immigration into conversations about classical music), and Bill O’Reilly (who believes that he who screams the loudest is right) have the highest rated talk radio and TV shows in America. Alex Jones, the New World Order conspiracy theorist based out of Austin, Texas, has gained a large following (and a deep bank account) because he has focused his big mouth on the issue of illegal immigration.

I firmly believe that you haven’t been convinced by them, nor did you need them to reinforce your opinion, but I do not believe that you represent the average American.
Every group of immigrants were supposed to destroy this country, it hasn’t happened, and it never will, we are not the Greeks, Aztecs, Maya, Persians, or Romans.

7. Here are a couple of articles about illegal immigrants and their crime rates:

Corky Gonzalez was not a terrorist. No one knows exactly what happened that day. That's why he never went to jail for what happened then.

What about the American terrorists behind the Oklahoma City bombing?
Regardless, Mexican or American or Hispanic terrorists are not their argument, they believe that Arab terrorists can go to Mexico, assimilate, cross into the United States illegally, work as janitors in an airline company, learn how to fly planes by cleaning them out, and then cause another 9-11.

8. What obvious facts? Your main argument is about where America is headed, not where it’s at. As I’ve said before, America has been headed for ruin for decades and it always seems to avoid it.

There is a book named “The Courage to Heal,” it is quite possibly the worst self help book ever written, it has ruined the lives of many families and has been criticized by countless professionals. The two authors published later editions of their book, in the third edition they dealt with the criticisms of the book, they sounded absolutely correct in their defense, but it doesn’t mean that they were. Men like Prof. Hanson could no doubt deal with the criticisms of the first book, but it won’t make him right.

9. I agree, no one is impossible, but it can be controlled, and it doesn’t need a wall.

10. Yes it will, but living a comfortable life is an incentive as well. Living that comfortable life is close to impossible without some form of higher education. Which is I mentioned education reform.

No one on welfare is a happy person.

So the plan is to deport all American criminals and gang members? Why would any other nation have to take them? Or is the plan to deport them to Antarctica? They are Americans, not the type we are particularly proud of, but Americans nonetheless.

11. That will work; of course the definition of “need” will be subjective.

17. Inmates in the US who work get something, whether that be money or favor in their next parole hearing, in return for their labor. What exactly would illegal immigrants get? Why would they come back?